Phil Cooke

Yes, Phil. You're right on. Let's put the prosperity teaching to bed but let's wake up the farmer in all of us.

"If we sow sparingly we will reap sparingly. If we sow generously we will reap generously."  (2 Cor 9:6).

Isn't that prosperity teaching?

So does God care what I do with my fields and my seed? Or is it more a question of ownership and stewardship? Seems that if I recognize that He owns the seeds and the field and me (the sharecropper) and He causes the growth, then God won't mind if I find some enjoyment in –or personal benefit from –walking, head held high through a bumper crop.

Of course, pride in hard work is quite different than the self-aggrandizement so popular in other vocations. BTW, do you know any farmers who wear bling?

http://mobilecause.blogspot.com

The question isn't whether or not God has great things for us…he does. Does God give prosperity…absolutely. I believe he has great things in store of his children.

The problem is what some have turned this into. It started spot on, and even many of those who originally got the ball rolling would tell you that in man's hands it got out of control. It is no longer used to show God's love, provision, etc…it is, as Phil pointed out, used as a fundraiser.

It's all about focus. The same can be said about many things we do…how about salvation is the goals a lot of hands raised or lives changed? Is it so that we don't go to hell or that we make Christ lord?

It's natural for us to take everything we read in the bible and make it about us, and it is for you and I…but it can not stop there it must also be about others.

Thank you Phil for having the courage to be honest! I pray more people of influence will follow so maybe we’ll see some real change. (call me a dreamer)

I’ve tried “magic jesus”, I’ve even pitched it. There was a time when I even believed in it, but I was not seeing life as it really is. Yes, I wish more than anything “magic jesus” worked because right after I buy a new BMW I “might” help a few homeless.

Giving hearts cannot grow when we are focused on receiving.

I’d like to add another thought. I believe we have the word “prosper” all messed up. When we say, “God wants us to prosper” most of the time we are referring to financial increase so we can live an easy life without suffering. Ahhh, the American Dream! Wouldn’t it be nice?

The three times in my life that I have been blessed the most have been situations accompanied by great pain. Two of them involved extreme poverty! In all of them I “prospered” because I became a better person. Not one provided a Rolex!

Kevin, right on!

Such a simple concept but it cuts to the very heart of the matter. The believer should seek what is valuable in God's economy and Christ will equip us with the means to accomplish His will. If you're blessed with money, you'd better believe it's to help the poor and oppressed, not to build up and to make your life comfortable and safe. I can't help but think that it hurts the Father's heart that His children seek the gifts above the Giver. 

I live and minister in New Orleans, a difficult place to do both of those things, and it makes authentic Christianity that much harder to bring forth with a city filled with churches that preach health and wealth prosperity.  It sounds good, but I tell you from experience that having your itching ears scratched leaves you standing on a foundation that will crumble like a levee.

Love God. Love People.

-Travis

I think Phil is referring to the motives and attitude of the heart, more than just the message. In which I would have to agree.

Beautiful bank robbers,            They stole from you and me,Beautiful bank robbers,            With mansions by the sea. Beautiful bank robber couples,            So fabulously in love,We admire their plastic features,            And how their doctors dug. Beautiful bank robbers,            Say, You can be like me,And have other people admire,            Your mansion by the sea. Beautiful bank robbers,            Each must have his jet,They have their lovely ways,            Of getting what they get. Nothing is too good,            For bank robbers by the sea,Better than good is perfect,            To sell greed lustily.

Phil, I am in partial agreement with you on this one. I have been in the ministry at this point for almost thirty years. I have been mentored by both the father of the faith movement and the father of the prosperity message. What is so upsetting to me is that too many preachers took both messages and morphed it into a perverted, self-centered, and greed inspired mess that frankly is, at times, embarrassing.

My understanding of prosperity has always been that it is far more than about money. 3 John 2 actually is saying that no one will prosper beyond the level that their soul is prospering, which is to have your mind renewed to who we are in Christ, what we have in Christ, and what He has anointed us to do in and through Him. True prosperity is to be empowered by Christ to meet any man's need; be it spiritual, mental, physcial, social, material, or financial, and to do so through the power of God's anointing, faith, and love. This is only possible by having a very close and intimate relationship with the Lord through His Word and by His Spirit, both which require one to be concerned for interests that are much greater than how much money you have in the bank.

That is not to say that the financial side of things is not important, it is. That realm can be the source of a lot of pressure and concern that can end up testing ones faith in God to a very high degree. However, much of the pressure and problems that people face are products of their own making. Living beyond their means through borrowed money, buying things they really don't need just for self-gratification, making decisions as to where they are to live, work, go to school or church, what they are to drive or wear, all based solely on the financial aspects of the decision puts people in positions and places many times that God never intended them to be in. Our decisions need to be acts of obedience to Him, not just what is most economically beneficial to us at the time.

The entire prosperity message helps one to live in that life of obedience and enables them to be in the right places and the right time, doing the right thing with the right people. This could be something far more meaningful than just culminating a great buiness deal; it could be something as awesome as going to the less privileged side of town and ministering to the needs of those who really need a touch from God through someone who knows how to love. Obedience to do that type of thing will, many times allow God to open the doors to the material and financial side of things that you can't believe or confess your way into in a million years.

There really is nothing wrong with the real message of prosperity, for Jesus Himself came to preach the good news to the poor which could not possibly have been that they would have to stay poor. No, there is a way out of poverty and lack, and Jesus is that way. The problem has been some, not all, but some of the messengers have had too much self-interest and self-gratification as their motivation for preaching prosperity. In fact, no preacher should ever "use" any aspect of the gospel specifically and solely for the purpose of "fund-raising". That is not why anybody should preach, just to get money! There needs to be a revelation come to alot of pastors and preachers today that the very faith in God they tell everyone else to live by will work for them too. A preacher can get too dependent on the offering bucket and start looking to the people as his source rather than looking to God as his source and living by faith in the very Word he preaches. That doesn't mean he should quit receiving offerings for there is a Biblical mandate to receive offerings. But, the motivation will be entirely different if you are not counting on what comes into the offering to make it.

As I said, I have been in the ministry for almost thirty years and have seen a lot. I have seen God provide the needs of my church, family, and personally in a way that had nothing to do with taking an offering. He is always faithful to those who put their trust in Him! But, He can only show Himself strong to those whose hearts are perfect towards Him and are truly looking to Him as their source for all things. This means that I as a preacher must do the very same things that I preach to others to do in order to be obedient to God. I must tithe, give, and sow. I have to expect my giving to produce a harvest for me, and to give in a manner that is in obedience to God's leading by the Holy Spirit and consistent with all the other aspects of godly character. Not for show, not to impress, not to draw attention, but simply to obey. Whether anyone ever finds out about it or not, just obey God and be a blessing. Jesus said that what you do in that regard in secret will positiion you for an open reward from the Father. That will not happen when you are trying to promote yourself.

No, the prosperity message doesn't need to go away. We need more of it, at least the real prosperity message, the one from the Bible. The entire Americanized version of the gospel needs to pass from the scene and God's true Kingdom message of faith that works by love birthed in men's heart through a living union with a living and resurrected Christ needs to be heralded around this globe at a very high volume!

Bless you Phil, keep up the wonderful work!

Bill….You sound just like the pastors I had when my family was in WOF circles.  "Sound like," in that you presented the true Biblical perspective of prosperity.  Just because a few distorted the message, doesn't make the message wrong.  We simply must receive the full  Gospel message which includes prosperity.  As for me, I have accomplished much more for the kingdom of God in my prospersous years, than when I was in lack.  Doesn't mean that when I was in lack that I did not learn a few things from the Lord.   When there wasn't enough to pay the bills, generous souls showed up at our doorstep.  I learned humility but I also learned to reciprocate…over and over…the greater lesson and blessing was, "It is more blessed to give than to receive."  In lack I am limited.  The more abundant Christian life is all encompassing and starts with a contrite heart from the day of salvation.

I also agree these things must be taught in our churches and must be taught correctly.  We do ourselves a disservice by going around and around the mountain of error that a few have fallen into.  We must get our eyes off these men because there are many like yourself who are doing it accurately and Biblically.

3 John 2 is not a message from God to us today.  It is a salutation from John to the people he is writing a letter to, and it is nothing more in that context that us writing in a letter to someone, that we hope they are doing well and in good health.

The grasping of this type of shoddy exegesis has made a mockery of the Bible, the Church and the message of Christ and it's about time it were buried in the ash-heap of past heresies.

I wish I could hold to the optimism you have Phil that it is dying out.  I agree with your point that 2nd generation leadership is in general less prone to it than others.  I also think you may be correct in that the general pendulum of the US culture is seeing it more and more for what it is and beginning to embrace more and more the realization of sacrificial love.  I see the rise of ministries such as Sojourners and I also see the disconnect between the Republican Party and evangelicalism which arose in the 70's beginning to happen and a swing back to more incorporation of a social and ecological gospel that sadly Christians as a whole appear to have lost.  Rick Warren's recent issues are illustrative of the new voices arising to varying degrees in this area, and I'm glad to see it.

Realistically however, the basis of the prosperity gospel in its excessive forms is simply human greed and unfortunately, I don't believe that is going away.  I think we'll see it arise more in more in the so called 3rd world as they economically grow in the years ahead and the prosperity message takes root there as it did here under similar circumstances.

Regardless of what form it takes in what locations, heretical teaching and teachers and unbalanced teaching and teachers are always going to be with us.  In many ways, the most effective enemies of the historical church hasn't been persecution and hard times, it's been prosperity and power and their political entwinements in the culture.

I like what Matthew 5:15-20 says,

"Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don't be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned."

It's the motive that counts.

OOPS! My bad. The reference was supposed to be:

Matthew 7:15-20 (Message)

i think that God wants us to prosper and that poverty has no redeeming qualities..but we should not seek extravagant material wealth…why does my pastor need to drive a rolls royce? am an african and TBN is a huge TV station here and the effects of the “prosperity gospel” has been devastating to say the least! in a continent of such immense poverty this gospel is so seductive that we join the church because we want God to grant us material possessions! we revere TD jakes, ken copeland, joyce meyer et al because they say what out hearts and stomachs wish to hear? is that the gospel of Jesus?

think before you preach this gospel! many at home have lost homes, children’s fees, the next meal because they have brainwashed into thinking that giving and giving to the chucrch is the only way they can rise above the poverty!there is more to the bible than money and extravagance!let us go back to the original purpose of christianity which is to spread the gospel and to help those in need!

if we give lets give under the direction of the Holy Spirit and in joy and love and thanksgiving and not because we expect something from God he is not an ATM machine! am from kenya by the way…

Love this thought. So true.

If you’re not a millionaire then I question your salvation.

I understand and appreciate the sentiment behind the thoughts, but fear that you are merely knocking down that same strawman as people in non-believing culture.  Have there been extremes that prove highly embarassing to the Christian faith?  Absolutely!  But the totality of the so-called "prosperity" gospel is that God desires for you to tap into the abundant life that Jesus paid for.  Why should he have done that if he didn't want us to actually have it?

And what you find coming over many of the prosperity pulpits are instructions on becoming better.  A better employee and boss.  A better wife or husband. Etc.  These things have to be taught because there are many Bible-believing followers of Jesus who simply have not received such equipping from either home or school.  If they don't get it from the church, where will they?

Create a church where people are taught to expect the highest from God in every area of their lives and they are provided a practical, life-applicable understanding of the Word and they are instilled with a heart after God and you will not have to worry about wandering into some of the excesses of the prosperity gospel.  

It is almost humorous and pathetic that some would want to "do away" with this message of prosperity….God is a God of multiplication.  I might be able to win one soul without a dollar in my pocket but many more souls will cost a whole lot more.  Those who think the prosperity message is all about "me" have not a clue what they are saying.  Prosperity is all about the kingdom of God and advancing it in this world.  If a church can't pay it's bills, the ceiling leaks and it's pastor wears holey shoes…what kind of a witness is that in the western world. 

I just saw Creflo Dollar on TV speaking at a Joyce Meyer conference…big arena, filled to capacity.  Creflo made the statement, "Faith is not about getting rich quick.  Faith is about a lifestyle."  Some of these guys have been around a long time and are teaching Biblical truth.  There are many who are listening and "getting it."  There are others who don't want to listen and will never "get it."  That is why they are beating this dead horse again and again. 

I agree, we waste precious time, effort, and energy arguing this issue.  I don't think it has slowed these people of faith and prosperity down one iota.  But I do think the critics are digging a hole and going nowhere fast.