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	<title>Comments on: When Business and Ministry Collide</title>
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	<description>Change Revolution</description>
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		<title>By: Bart Breen</title>
		<link>http://philcooke.com/business_and_ministry_collide/#comment-6053</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart Breen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Good thoughts Phil and I agree with a lot of what your saying.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are elements of business in any organization, including the Church and I don&#039;t think it is wrong to strive for excellence and accountibility as an element of basic Christian Stewardship.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It&#039;s not an either or proposition however so I would reject the question, &quot;Should the Church be run like a business or not?&quot; as a false dilemma.  It&#039;s not an either/or proposition.  There are degrees in between and the idea of the proper mix or balance comes into play rather than arguing for one extreme against the other.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think the real question is, if we start with the business world and take the current popular thinking and apply it to the Church, what are the underlying assumptions and philosophies that those business ideas are built upon that may come into the ministry and life of the Church like greeks hiding in a wooden horse?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It all ties into a lot of what you&#039;ve said in the past about culture being as important as vision because without a healthy organizational culture the vision cast will come back empty or be distorted.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A lot of business practices are value neutral, but not all.  I think what is called for here is not a pat answer cast from either extreme, but wisdom and discernment that pokes things around a bit to see what&#039;s really hiding there underneath and does it fit with the purpose of the Church?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good thoughts Phil and I agree with a lot of what your saying.</p>
<p>There are elements of business in any organization, including the Church and I don&#39;t think it is wrong to strive for excellence and accountibility as an element of basic Christian Stewardship.</p>
<p>It&#39;s not an either or proposition however so I would reject the question, &quot;Should the Church be run like a business or not?&quot; as a false dilemma.  It&#39;s not an either/or proposition.  There are degrees in between and the idea of the proper mix or balance comes into play rather than arguing for one extreme against the other.</p>
<p>I think the real question is, if we start with the business world and take the current popular thinking and apply it to the Church, what are the underlying assumptions and philosophies that those business ideas are built upon that may come into the ministry and life of the Church like greeks hiding in a wooden horse?</p>
<p>It all ties into a lot of what you&#39;ve said in the past about culture being as important as vision because without a healthy organizational culture the vision cast will come back empty or be distorted.</p>
<p>A lot of business practices are value neutral, but not all.  I think what is called for here is not a pat answer cast from either extreme, but wisdom and discernment that pokes things around a bit to see what&#39;s really hiding there underneath and does it fit with the purpose of the Church?</p>
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		<title>By: Blaine Hogan</title>
		<link>http://philcooke.com/business_and_ministry_collide/#comment-6054</link>
		<dc:creator>Blaine Hogan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philcooke.vintom.com/business_and_ministry_collide#comment-6054</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree with much of what you&#039;re saying Phil.  My only concern is how/if mega-churches and mega-pastors can begin to change as quickly as they might need to. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It seems like the baby-boomer churches came to great success amidst the top-down leadership of the early 80&#039;s and 90&#039;s and I just wonder if these current leaders will be able to transform as much as you might hope.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I am an optimist so I do hold out hope.  However, I think that what you&#039;re describing is more in line with &quot;generative leadership.&quot;  And while Harvard is beginning to teach this, I have my doubts that many mega pastors will be able to truly transform as much as their contexts will need them to.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Because at the end of the day if it &lt;em&gt;appears&lt;/em&gt; that things are working, why change ? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with much of what you&#39;re saying Phil.  My only concern is how/if mega-churches and mega-pastors can begin to change as quickly as they might need to. </p>
<p>It seems like the baby-boomer churches came to great success amidst the top-down leadership of the early 80&#39;s and 90&#39;s and I just wonder if these current leaders will be able to transform as much as you might hope.</p>
<p>I am an optimist so I do hold out hope.  However, I think that what you&#39;re describing is more in line with &quot;generative leadership.&quot;  And while Harvard is beginning to teach this, I have my doubts that many mega pastors will be able to truly transform as much as their contexts will need them to.  </p>
<p>Because at the end of the day if it <em>appears</em> that things are working, why change ? </p>
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		<title>By: Chris Busch</title>
		<link>http://philcooke.com/business_and_ministry_collide/#comment-6055</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Busch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Good post and good comments (so far).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are differences in the cultures of for-profit and not-for-profit organizations.  Performance in the corporate world is being monitored by management, directors, shareholders… those with a personal stake in outcomes.  But, in the nonprofit world, those monitoring may not have much of a stake in outcomes, as long as things are going along well enough.  Leadership in a nonprofit has often been trained for a helping profession, which prepares a leader to believe the best in people and to be patient and longsuffering.  So a pastor may consider the optimum situation to be a staff that “gets along” and an absence of “strife”.  And non-performers are tolerated because tomorrow may be the day it all changes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Boat rockers, change agents, and others who confront deficiencies in performance just don’t fit.  And, since critical mass often belongs to those whose primary value is getting along, the life span of a change agent inside the bubble is usually quite short.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There may be some leaders who will be able to make a shift into a more participative, team leadership, but I think most will not be able to make the shift.  It will simply not “feel” right.  It’s easy to talk about giving up authority and control, but for most of us, insecurity will ultimately sabotage such an attempt.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s not so much about personal management skills, which can be taught and learned, but the culture is set much more by values, which are intertwined with what makes us emotionally comfortable.  In short, authority is hard for us to share, because due to our fundamental beliefs, we find security in wielding authority.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It will take a generation of leaders who value collaboration and teamwork more than control and individualism to turn the tide.  The good news? – if you look closely at the church you might detect that the waters of change are gradually rising.  The bad news? – for the most part, it’s painfully slow.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post and good comments (so far).</p>
<p>There are differences in the cultures of for-profit and not-for-profit organizations.  Performance in the corporate world is being monitored by management, directors, shareholders… those with a personal stake in outcomes.  But, in the nonprofit world, those monitoring may not have much of a stake in outcomes, as long as things are going along well enough.  Leadership in a nonprofit has often been trained for a helping profession, which prepares a leader to believe the best in people and to be patient and longsuffering.  So a pastor may consider the optimum situation to be a staff that “gets along” and an absence of “strife”.  And non-performers are tolerated because tomorrow may be the day it all changes.</p>
<p>Boat rockers, change agents, and others who confront deficiencies in performance just don’t fit.  And, since critical mass often belongs to those whose primary value is getting along, the life span of a change agent inside the bubble is usually quite short.</p>
<p>There may be some leaders who will be able to make a shift into a more participative, team leadership, but I think most will not be able to make the shift.  It will simply not “feel” right.  It’s easy to talk about giving up authority and control, but for most of us, insecurity will ultimately sabotage such an attempt.</p>
<p>It’s not so much about personal management skills, which can be taught and learned, but the culture is set much more by values, which are intertwined with what makes us emotionally comfortable.  In short, authority is hard for us to share, because due to our fundamental beliefs, we find security in wielding authority.</p>
<p>It will take a generation of leaders who value collaboration and teamwork more than control and individualism to turn the tide.  The good news? – if you look closely at the church you might detect that the waters of change are gradually rising.  The bad news? – for the most part, it’s painfully slow.</p>
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		<title>By: breaklight</title>
		<link>http://philcooke.com/business_and_ministry_collide/#comment-6056</link>
		<dc:creator>breaklight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ministry is not business but ministry can (and should) do business and implement/operate good business practices - observe in Paul&#039;s ministry, Ordination of Bishops and Deacons in 1 Timothy 3; workers/servants/young men in Titus 2; and Christians in 1 Thessalonians 4. A verse in Romans actually says that we should &#039;Not [be] slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;&#039;. When I was Secondary School as it is better known in the US as High School, my physics teacher told me that physics is not math but physic contains a lot of math and it would do me good to understand math to perform better at physics. I think it is just about the same principle with ministries or churches that decide to have products &amp; services attached to their ministry operations. But unlike the world, one thing is clear cut; we gain finances to serve people better and distribute wealth (many Christians still don&#039;t get this one at all) not accumulate/heap up and feel good about our achievements. Not what the world look like if we did this more often?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ministry is not business but ministry can (and should) do business and implement/operate good business practices &#8211; observe in Paul&#8217;s ministry, Ordination of Bishops and Deacons in 1 Timothy 3; workers/servants/young men in Titus 2; and Christians in 1 Thessalonians 4. A verse in Romans actually says that we should &#8216;Not [be] slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;&#8217;. When I was Secondary School as it is better known in the US as High School, my physics teacher told me that physics is not math but physic contains a lot of math and it would do me good to understand math to perform better at physics. I think it is just about the same principle with ministries or churches that decide to have products &#038; services attached to their ministry operations. But unlike the world, one thing is clear cut; we gain finances to serve people better and distribute wealth (many Christians still don&#8217;t get this one at all) not accumulate/heap up and feel good about our achievements. Not what the world look like if we did this more often?</p>
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		<title>By: MarketingMinistries</title>
		<link>http://philcooke.com/business_and_ministry_collide/#comment-6057</link>
		<dc:creator>MarketingMinistries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philcooke.vintom.com/business_and_ministry_collide#comment-6057</guid>
		<description>Phil,

You are such a breath of fresh air. Unfortunately I believe I know the ministry you are refering to, however, my commment on this blog is  from a different angle. I too have seen a massive amount of wastefulness in the ministry, my angle is from the media buying side. Millions of dollars a month spent to broadcast a 30 minute program. Ministries who are spending money on stations like INSP, Word Network, Church Channel, God TV etc. They buy local network markets like FOX or NBC or ABC or MY Network, with zero accountablity as to what they want the station to produce. I constantly am hitting the reset button and asking what it is the station is going to produce for them. Why they want to but on certain networks. I can&#039;t believe some of the responses I have recieved over the years, especially from ministries that you and I would think they know how to buy and what to expect. It seems that the more money the ministry is spending the more it is a relationship buy, rather than an accountabliity buy. Here is a lesson for those of you who have a 30 minute broadcast on Word, INSP, Church Channel, TBN or God TV or any other christian satellite network. Are you ready....

You are buying perception... Nothing else.

There are no comparitive ratings or numbers that these stations can give you to make an educated buy. So if you want the perception that you are on Nationally and are willing to pay 10,000 month or more for a perception and relationship,than the above stations are good place for you to buy. If you want any sort of numbers and accountablity then you need to look other areas.

www.spendlessreachmore.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,</p>
<p>You are such a breath of fresh air. Unfortunately I believe I know the ministry you are refering to, however, my commment on this blog is  from a different angle. I too have seen a massive amount of wastefulness in the ministry, my angle is from the media buying side. Millions of dollars a month spent to broadcast a 30 minute program. Ministries who are spending money on stations like INSP, Word Network, Church Channel, God TV etc. They buy local network markets like FOX or NBC or ABC or MY Network, with zero accountablity as to what they want the station to produce. I constantly am hitting the reset button and asking what it is the station is going to produce for them. Why they want to but on certain networks. I can&#8217;t believe some of the responses I have recieved over the years, especially from ministries that you and I would think they know how to buy and what to expect. It seems that the more money the ministry is spending the more it is a relationship buy, rather than an accountabliity buy. Here is a lesson for those of you who have a 30 minute broadcast on Word, INSP, Church Channel, TBN or God TV or any other christian satellite network. Are you ready&#8230;.</p>
<p>You are buying perception&#8230; Nothing else.</p>
<p>There are no comparitive ratings or numbers that these stations can give you to make an educated buy. So if you want the perception that you are on Nationally and are willing to pay 10,000 month or more for a perception and relationship,than the above stations are good place for you to buy. If you want any sort of numbers and accountablity then you need to look other areas.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.spendlessreachmore.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.spendlessreachmore.com</a></p>
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