Joyce Meyer’s Commode and How Rumors Can Damage a Reputation

http://www.victorylafayette.org Cory Kent

So how do you empty the drawers? I think I'd prefer a tree out back over that one!! ; )

Chris

I guess this kind conserves water. And that should be applauded.

Mary Hutchinson

Joyce stopped her business day to pray for me when I was sick.

She is the real deal.

Antique Dealer

I sell antiques and do appraisals…there's NO Way that commode is worth $23,000! There may be some abuse with some minintries (not saying there is in the Meyer organization), but Grassley really had to stretch for this one…

island girl

some donor got a $23K tax receipt…that's all that means

Mark Broccardo

I will be glad to see Joyce and all these other scam artists in federal prison. There they will learn some of the humilty that they preach to others.

Mark Broccardo

That's what she gets paid to do – it's a frigging job. If you made the money she makes praying for people, you'd be doing it too.

Mark Broccardo

Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn… they are all scammers. They all preach one thing and do another. Anyone who gives them money is a fool. I hope Joyce and the rest of these scammers get put in federal prison for life. There they will be able to finally operate a true "non-profit" ministry.

Mary Hutchinson

Mark, I pity you. Your anger has overtaken you.

Joyce was not paid to pray for me. She was paying me to give her and her team advice. She was taking away from that time she paid for –to pray for me.

Two years later I was fired from that account.

I have worked with dozens of ministries. I have seen lots of bad things. All are human.

But Joyce has a heart that longs for God, she is not perfect, but she is sincere and has done amazing things for God.

Thomas Jensen

Mr. Cooke, your article is a dishonest distraction. Of course the real legal issue is not the commode, but whether Joyce Meyer should continue to claim tax-free church status while living an elite multimillioniare lifestyle from the millions in profits of her church/business. The law is clear. Not denying her powerful good works as a pastor, Joyce is violating the law stating that tax-free church staff must have salaries typical of other churches in the region. So unless her neighboring preachers also earn $millions, she has a legal problem and Grassley is right. In my old version of the Bible, Jesus talked about "give to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar,", and that old camel thing, etc., etc. – are you saying that old New Testament is out of fashion now?

For Christians the real question is should poor widows and I send my hard-earned ministry donations to someone who will use the money to fuel the private jets and run the mansions? Is that Jesus's and the apostles' teaching of a minister? Or is there a more deserving minister, not corrupted by immense wealth, who may use the money more effectively?

Tragically, Christians are providing the fuel for the justifiable anti-Christian groundswell in our time, allowing Jesus to be exploited as a profit scheme, and political club (and condemnor, but that's a different lie). Mr. Cooke, you add to that perception. Let's read the Bible for ourselves, and do better!

Mary Hutchinson

Thomas, you seen to think the source of personal income Joyce has is the ministry. She has written books that were published by Time Warner and she (like all authors) is paid a royalty on books sold. As a best sellers with many titles, she does very well from that for-profit venture.

Kathy

Thomas – that's a real stretch. Phil's not creating a distraction, but stating a good point. He's doing exactly what you say and being honest. Errors damage reputations. If you want to argue her salary or tax free status – great, but that wasn't the point of the post. Also, to compare Joyce to a local pastor, when Joyce is one of the best seling authors in America and supervising a ministry with hundreds of employees is also a stretch. In fact, if you read the blog a bit closer, you'll see that Phil brings up your issues in this post:

http://philcooke.com/changing_the_rules

–Only he does it without being so cynical. Let's find a solution, not continue wallow in the problem.

Kathy

I think Thomas is a great example of Phil's point that the average Christian has no idea of the scope, size, operation, or benefit of large ministries. We tend to compare Joyce Meyer, World Vision, Feed the Children, Joel Osteen and others with the local pastor of 100 people in South Carolina that we grew up with. But today, culture, trends, business, media, education, and ministry has changed, and things have simply grown. People support these large ministries because they want to – it's not like a government deal where we have to do it. No one's putting a gun to my head when I send a donation to Joyce or anyone else. If we're going to deal with the global AIDS epidemic, sex slavery in Africa, hunger in the 3rd world, or other massive issues, we need a bigger resource. Bottom line - If we're going to reach this culture in the 21st Century, we simply have to think bigger, and stop nit-picking over the size of a ministry, as if only the little ones are doing good.

baby lamb learning

Dear Mary,

may I asked who is buying her books? Who made her best sellers? Non Christian would not spend a dime to buy her books or any of the others "pastor/ministers" books. The reason we are buying the books and at the same time mading them best sellers, are to learn "more" about the walk with G_d. Sad to admit I have bought many books from different ministers to "learn" "more" on how to "improve/better" mine walk with G_d.

Wake up sleeper, the ONLY BOOK any Christian should buy and read is the BIBLE!! and the Holy Spirit will teaches you alll things and take from the LORD and show unto you what the LORD wants you to know. It is not a one time reading from OT-NT, mediates on the Word is what we have been told from the Bible. The BIBLE is a never ending BOOK/story.

Good Commentary

Give unto Caesar – I am certain that she is. I am sure that she pays income tax. There is no way around that… There are shelters that ANY millionare will use to protect some of their holdings, but she still has an income – whether the ministry pays taxes or not – she MUST. If she didn't then trust me she would be getting into tax trouble. I would bet that with her stature and "red flags" that they have audited her already…

Bottom line….think big?

hi, kathy,

according to you people supports these large ministries because they wanted to- -#?? if you are BOMBARDED daily whether in Church or watching Christian tele., and as a "faithful" Christian who wants to obey G_d´s word as much as they could and will, to give and tithe,…………………. one would either feel, and have a bad conscience for not giving/tithing, or a TOTAL BRAINWASH with the prosperities gosple … sure no one is putting a gun to your head BUT psychology is an "invisibile gun put to your head"……………………………….

Sen. Grassley office would agreed with you…..quote: the average Christian has no idea of the scope,size, operation, or benefit of large ministries…………. Quote; Sen. Grassley office:-"Based on initial review, the way ministries operate has changed significantly over the last 20years to 25yrs while the tax laws governing them for the most part have not," his office said…from "Senate Comittee Investigating 6 Major Ministries."

Dear Christians, look to JESUS CHRISTand learn from HIM, not your "idols"! pastors or "ministers" whether spiritually or earthly. Go back to THE BOOK!! BIBLE.

MATTHEW 17:24-27 Even Jesus paid tax!!!!to the local government. and also remember Paul´s teaching in ROMAN 13!!! ………………. Some ministries seems to forget what they preached: JESUS SAID in MATT.6:2 So, when u give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets as the hypocrittes do………….Why are they announing it? so they would get more monies from the believers?? G_d knows what is in a man´s heart.

Good Commentary

"the ONLY BOOK any Christian should buy and read is the BIBLE!! and the Holy Spirit will teaches you alll things and take from the LORD and show unto you what the LORD wants you to know"

Really?!?!

That sounds like an un-teachable or hurt statement.

Why would God call people to do ministry if all they needed to do was pass out Bibles. Not to discount personal study of the Word by ANY means.

I agree, we can often get lazy, and rely on other people's teachings rather than our own study, but again, this is about balance. God does not choose to speak to His children one way only. He is creative, and He will use gifts that He has given to people to minister to the weary, trouble, and lost.

Don't rely on other's interpretations as your only meal, but there is no reason why you can't be ministered to by others.

Bart

Wake up sleeper, the ONLY BOOK any Christian should buy and read is the BIBLE!! and the Holy Spirit will teaches you alll things and take from the LORD and show unto you what the LORD wants you to know. It is not a one time reading from OT-NT, mediates on the Word is what we have been told from the Bible. The BIBLE is a never ending BOOK/story.

Wow indeed.

The Bible is inspired and primary for Christians but that certainly doesn't remove any other reading as somehow of no value for the Christian. Even a cursory look at the early Church shows continued letters from leaders to congregations to give them teaching and encouragement. Dare I even note that much of the New Testament formed in precisely that manner before the Church recognized the status of canonical writings for many of them, particularly Paul's writings.

Yes the same Holy Spirit that inspired the originals is speaking to us today through the Bible and if we are sensitive, through our hearts. God, I believe, recognized that solely relying upon that had dangers though, and that is why he warns that no scripture is of private interpretation and establilshes authority and accountibility within the Church in matters both mundane such as the handling of money as well as teaching and use of authority and power.

Interestingly enough, that is what gives me pause in the current crop of failures and scandals among Churches. It isn't particularly surprising to me that so much of it concentrates in the Charismatic tradition (and no, I'm not anti-charismatic, far from it.) Obviously it's not exclusive to there, so please don't read more into that statement.

So much emphasis is placed upon the personality and perceived walk and closeness to God of the leader that it becomes almost the equivilent of attacking God to question a leader, even in cases where there are legitimate grounds for concern.

Along with the Charismatic movement has been a strong emphasis on independence from larger governing bodies and it has also resulted at times in Boards strategically peopled with supporters who in effect don't wield independent power but instead rubber stamp what the strong leader wants to do and there is an organizational dynamic of fear created where the organization is afraid it cannot run without the leader who raises funds and is known and trusted by the people who financially support the ministry. Likewise, its a clear dynamic that board members and staff members who ask difficult questions or challenge decisions are painted as unspiritual, rebellious and isolated and removed. Small wonder the falls we're seeing are so spectacular. Few, to my mind, start out imagining they are going to do something wrong. They simply by means of their strong personalities and insecurities surround themselves with people who will continue to affirm them, not challenge them and over time, small issues become large ones and nobody within has the courage or the means to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

Sadly the entire Church gets tainted with the residue from these issues and sadly, the Church universal has little power to address these issues UNLESS ENOUGH OF US AS INDIVIDUAL CHRISTIANS STAND UP AND REFUSE TO FUND MINISTRIES THAT DON"T HAVE LEGITIMATE OVERSIGHT AND CONTROLS IN PLACE. The problem there is we don't have the time individually to do the work and organizations out there that do are only as reliable as the people running it who often don't have the power to affect change and who over time become a rubber stamp too and don't blow the whistle and make noise when small issues arise.

Baby Lamb Learning

You guys seems to read between the lines; I did NOT tell others not to read other books than the Bible, pls do not put word in what is written, then I would have written it this way:- (DO NOT read other people books ONLY the Bible!)

Moreover, I am speaking out my thoughts with reflection to my own situtation as stated:- to "learn" more about the walk with God! And just in case you have not noticed I mentioned that I bought many(read too) books myself. The reason is to "learn"" more" about the walk with God; and gain to knowledge even though I have not written it in my last thoughts. Why do you think the name BABY? LAMB? LEARNING?

It´s amazing, (this is again my thought) if just a 4 letter aiphabets such as ONLY would cause such stiring in one´s emotion, then I presumed?#?!…….(or should I better not think out loud? all the Words in the BIBLE should be taken word for word.)

I am reading this Blog because I happened to surf across it and are curious as what Christianity is up to nowadays.

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others of good-will. The latter do so in love ….the former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely …. (Phil:1:15-17). I am still learning from the Word of God. Shalom.

Phil

Actually, "Baby Lamb Learning", you couldn't be more wrong on most of your comments. Non-believers buy great number of Joyce Meyer's, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren's, and others books, that's why Barnes & Noble and others put them on the front desk when you walk into the store. And telling us not to read other books than the Bible? That's not even intelligent enough to comment on. God gave us a mind, and for us not to use it in the exploration, understanding, and enjoyment of the universe through all the learning and experiences of others, is to reject the creator of it all. (By the way, you're reading this blog – so you're breaking your own rule… :-)

Mary Hutchinson

Baby Lamb, here is exactly what you said:

Wake up sleeper, the ONLY BOOK any Christian should buy and read is the BIBLE!!

You remarks are quite confusing.

First, if a million people buy John Grisham's book, "Playing for Pizza" -total popcorn for the brain, and he makes a ton of dough for that, it's okay. But if Joyce sells a million books on living life to the fullest, and makes a ton of dough for that, it's a terrible thing? Is that what you are saying?

Frankly, I don't spend four hours a day in the Word as Joyce does, and she has insights I would never have. I appreciate her teaching and when I spend $30 on her book, I get a deal for that money–a value. Her publisher makes most of the money, and she personally benefits.

I have no idea why anyone has an issue with that. Or why that should have any bearing of if she should run the non profit she started and grew out of her garage.

Baby Lamb still learning

Dear Mary,

I DID NOT say it´s a terrible thing abt Joyce Meyers bks. Pls. do not read more than what was written. I read Robert Ludlum too.

I watches her programms,and love her teachings and bks, especially ME and my big mouth. I brought her teachings and magazines in 1999 known as Life in the Word to China and distributed them mthly for 2 yrs, also K.Copeland Believer´s Voice of Victory, even though it is forbidden and I would get into trouble. It is not about us, it is about our Faith.

If in sharing my thoughts have upset and offended anyone, through my naiveness and unskilled in writting, I sincerely apologizes and asks for your forgivrness in the Name of my Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus. Shalom.

Good Commentary

Well Baby Lamb.

You did admit that you bought them, but you said "Sadly" first, indicating that you believe you should not have. As if it was a bad thing to do.

We may have mis-understood what you were saying, but when I read both of your posts, I really see an about=face… Doesn't seem like the same thinking at all. No offense intended in any of my posts. You made some strongly worded arguments, that most of us responded to strongly. I don't think anyone had the intention to hurt your feelings, we were just expressing different views with reasoning to back them up.

Bart

I for one took no offense at what you said, but you can't expect people on a Bulletin Board to understand what you are saying if you're not clear. All we have to go on is what you say at face value. I can understand if english is not your native language how we may have misunderstood some things. My words were aimed at the issues you raised, not you personally. Blessing back.

Tom Hayes

When the money from the ministry goes home with the ministers and when the lifestyle becomes dependent on huge sums of money diverted from a ministry supported by donors it is flat wrong. I a supporter wants Joyce's ministry to have an exceptional piece of furniture in her front lobby and is giving out of love for God that is a good thing.

The expensive oil used to anoint Jesus is no different.

When the (commode) chest of drawers, hutch or whatever the thing is goes home with Joyce then that is a different matter.

I work in a pretty different ministry that reaches around the world to millions of forgotten and unreachable lost souls. I have not been able to talk to anyone in these large ministries. They will not talk to me or take a phone call.

I know what we do is reaching millions of people that will never hear the gospel.

We are a poor ministry and can barely pay the bills.

I have found no one in the large ministries that has even the slightest interest in what we do or the millions of people that we reach.

Kathy

That sounds very noble, except for the fact that these major ministries probably get about 1,000 calls a day like yours. I live in Hollywood, and the studios are similar. Do you really think I could just pick up the phone and get Stephen Speilberg? Or in the ministry world, Billy Graham? Or Joel Osteen? It would be nice if someone like you could get Joyce Meyer on the phone, but I'm afraid you'd have to stand in line with the 10,000 others across the country who would like to do it too…. Don't blame Joyce. Just suck it up and recognize reality.

ger

I think there are pros and cons for large ministries. The pros are that the mega ministries with their mega budgets can do financially mega stuff…feed thousand and run dozens of schools and orphanages etc But money is like the One Ring of the LOTR…it can be used for good but there is a tendency to evil, like power where absolute power corrupts absolutely….and here we can use also the idea of quantity for absolute…absolute ( lots and lots of money) money corrupts absolutely also. Few there are who can resists corruption just as only Frodo was deemed worthy to be the Ringbearer and he wasn't that immune either. In the longer run…without being judgemental, the smaller approach…is better. Each person helping…or forming small groups, or small churches. We keep thinking of efficiency…economies of scale but God has His own economic models and as the qty of money is small, it would not attract the greedy and envious enemies of the Church and the Church sure has enemies and more and more as time goes on. But we do sympathize we those we are truly called to mega ministries and have to handle the troubles that come along with the benefits of a mega budget.

Mr. Black

I pray that these ministries would repent and stop what they have been doing right now. We need Christians who can handle money without sinning! Pray that these ministries would stop trying to justify the wrong that they have done and admit what they have done like the Baker's did years ago.

bippsy

would Jesus have these extravagances?????? no one wants them to be dirt poor, but please where has common sense gone?

wake up church!!! we are so tangled up worrying about abortion, homosexuality, prayer in school and where we can hang the ten commandments that we are not staying in the word, where we would be warned to watch for the charlatains. wolves dressed in sheeps clothing, false prophets. quit blindly defending these scam artists and pull out your bible. it has got A WHOLE LOT TO SAY ABOUT THIS SUBJECT!!!!!

maria

This is sad!

Ms. Julia

How about~ Let's all pray for the ministers, the person accusing them, all of ourselves wondering about it all. Let's believe the best, forgive the worst, pray for the rest. Let's let God work it out or, for those who believe in another way~karma.

veramartin

judge not lest you be judged. thank god for joycemeyer,t.d. jakesand all the other pastors that teachthe word of god.These pastors have nothing to prove to you .I believe they are doing the lords work ,spreading the word.What are you doing to spread the word of god.Iam so thankful for all our faithful pastors.Do you actually think they would still be spreading the word if they were not doing gods work?IDON'T THINK SO.He is able to stop them in their tracks in a split second.God is arewarder of those who seek him.Until i started watching these pastors on t.v. i was avery lost person concerning the bible.Now i know god has all power on earthand in heaven just by my own life experiences.There is power in the word,just as god has instructed joyce meyer to teach us.Tryit and believe and you will experience the true happiness and hope in you life.So what god has blessed her with a 23,000 gift,we can all experience the gifts from heaven if we put ourselves in the position to receive them.Thank you pastors and teachers of the lords word ,thank god for the work he is doing through you all over the world .

andrew

walmart is a for profit corp,one of the main reasons they are very profitable is that they run there buisness very frugaly from corp headquarters all the way down to the casher.i dont shop at walmart,because i dont like there buissness practices.i beleive joyce does a great job of teaching the word of god in a way that a common person can easally understand,in the past ive spent money on her products,and i will continue to watch her on t.v. and listen on the radio.but i will no longer donate money to her ministry.instead i will seek out local people in need so im sure 100% of my money gets used properly.one thing joyce teaches a lot about is the ego,unfortinatly i think her own ego and greed has got the best of her.i will pray to god that joyce will see the error in her ways and change her extravagant livestyle because if she dont she will only turn off alot of people that would donate tens of millions of dollars that her ministry could put to good use to help many people.and if she dont check her ego and greed i will unfortinatly stop folling her all together.i would not have a problem with her making 200 or 300k a year or her kids and son inlaws making 100k a year each,i would not have a problem with houses and cars and toys,and nice furnature that were that were based on her 200 or 300k salary.but when we start talking 10 million dollar jets,or 50k desks,or 25k dressers thats to much to swallow.i hope to god she asks the lord and her followers for forgivness before she destroys the very thing god blessed her with ,with her own greed and ego.

Bobby Benn

I've been supporting ministries like Joyce Meyer, T.D. Jakes, Creflo Dollar, and others for years, and will continue to do so. Everytime I pick up a ministry magazine, and read the testimonies, and see the work that's being done hear and abroad, it makes me want to do more. If I had a choice to be a Pastor or a construction worker, I believe I would choose constructon, why? if we only knew what Pastor's have to deal with on a daily basis, I don't think we could handle it. Read the account of Moses who was in charge of over two million Jews. This man of God almost had a mental breakdown, he would have, if it wasn't for his father-in-law Jethro.(Exodus 18 and numbers 11.)

I live in an area that was devastated by Katrina. One day I was at a local building supply store and I noticed a contractor with Joyce Meyer ministries on his truck. There were other ministries that contributed to the needs of the gulf coast. You don't hear about them, because they don't care about the fanfare like some of the famous stars. They are aware of what they do in secret they will be rewarded openly, but those that give in the presence of news reporters,tv cameras, etc that's their reward.

These men and women are human and they're subject to making bad choices. our job is not to criticize but to lift them up in prayer, after all, God is a forgiving God. Wouldn't it be something, on the day of judgement, and you the critics see all the ones you criticize going to heaven, but you were so busy putting them (Ministers) down that you forgot to cancel your reservation in hell, and you spend eternity at the Hellton, where Satan is the landlord. On a closing note, the same people you're putting down are praying for you(critics)

Ray Tracy

Are they perfect? No! Do they make mistskes? Yes! Do they always make the wisest and most ethical decisions? No! Do they sin?? Not intentionally – but yes, definately. Are they human? Yes. Will we all ever get past the 'I'm better than you are – na na na na an' attitude toward life and each other? Probably not. All the praises condemnations opinions and observations made about one or more of the people and or organizations Senator Grassley and others are looking into can easily be said with complete honesty and accuracy about others. Do you really think or believe that any business (big or small), industry, altruistic civic community or charitable organization, politician, political party, phylosophical entity, or governmental entity is so perfect they they could withstand the same scrutiny or accusations?

Ultimaely it will come down to this one simple fact. None of us are perfect but all of us can be forgiven. Yes, you can forgive me and I can forgive you the question stands do I choose to? Do you? Therefore I put it to you; Do I have the right or the power or the permission to tell you what you SHOULD do or think or believe? Do you have the right to decide for me those things that I MUST?

What is your intention with this quest of yours? What do you hope to accomplish? A hundred years from now will it matter in the least to anyone?

Just Curious.

africanangel

Hi I happened on this page tonight while surfing and I can't believe some of the things I am reading. I am not going to make any judgments only a few comments. I am a new Christian only a few months old in Christ. What i know of the word so far as I have been studying, is that The Lord says that we are Not to judge anyone one less we be Judged. Also, think about this… what if some of you are wrong? what if some of the ministers you all are talking about REALLY ARE anointed? does not God's word say Touch NOT my anointed? That's all I have to say. I mean no harm I am only making an observation and I am surly not thinking I know more than you all as I am only a new Christian

Phil

Actually, you've taken both scriptures out of context, and I would encourage you to re-read those sections of the Bible.

Virginia

Well I have to admit that we have turned Jesus into a retail and advertising scheme. Pretty sad because most of us love Him so much and we just want to support someone we believe can do so much more than we can as individuals. Like so many others I want to feed a starving baby in Cambodia..but wait maybe the single mom in my neighborhood could use this money too, or how about a bag of groceries, let her know about a job vacancy in your company, the little things. We need to help the people right here as well as across the world. If you are having trouble trusting the mega ministries, be a ministry by yourself. You dont need millions of dollars. If you have two of something, give one away. If you havent used something in a year or so, give that away. A kid in your childs classroom may not get lunch everyday, pack an extra PBJ sandwich and tell your kid to give it away.And dont make a big deal about it either. No one needs to know. And keep praying the WORD…then forgive forgive love and forgive somemore. Remember God sees the heart of mega ministers and us little guys…so be busy for the Lord and I hope the next time I stop by I will be reading nothing but praise and worship!

Virginia

Hang in there Africanangel…keep reading the word and praying. Yes, judge not lest you be judged is a good thing to keep in mind, especially when many folks want to catch a Christian with thier hand in the cookie jar. They are mortal humans….think of this, a friend asked me what I knew about 'speaking in tongues' my response was "If it happens to you and it is from God, you will know it, if not, God will know it." His opinion of us is the only one that counts. He certainly can annoint a person (He is God afterall) Keep studying and do your best in each situation. Even if you make a mistake, after you know it was a boo boo…talk to your Heavenly Father, and thank him for the 'on the job' training. Tell Him you are sorry, forgive yourself (if you hurt someone else tell them too) and move on. I am so glad you received the gift of salvation, and I know how hard it is to be new to the word. Even after 30 years I am still new and there is so much to God that we can never stop learning. Dont be discouraged by these types of dialogs, they can make us all stronger and wiser. The bible says to get knowledge,Christ will help you know what to do with that knowledge. God bless and good choice!

The commodore

Phil,

I'm glad you clarified the commode not being a toilet–that is unfair and unfortunate. But Joyce Meyer has more problems than that when it comes to skepticism about her motives. She owns 5 houses, her husband drives a $107,000 car. She drives a Lexus and so does her son. She also has 3 boats and a private jet.

To be above reproach, Billy Graham capped his personal salary at $60,000. That's integrity.

I'm not suggesting JM's ministry has no value and that people aren't growing closer to God through her work. But, she is in no way vindicated of being a "rank and file" materialist because the public assumed her chest of drawers was a toilet.

Also, you mention in your post that it was donated. According to Meyer herself, that's not true. She told Congress and people on her site that she bought it along with 67 other pieces of furniture in an auction lot. However, she claims the price was only $230 and not $23,000 and that the auctioneer accidentally added a "0". Either way, the point stands–she's got major credibility issues when it comes to using her ministry to get filthy rich. The apostle Paul wouldn't even take money from some churches so they couldn't accuse him of using his ministry to get rich. Joyce obviously isn't worried about that–shouldn't that be cause for concern?

Phil

Good points. However, there's much context to these things. You're correct that Billy Graham never owned a jet – however he leases one for all his travel. That means he's probably paying far more for continuous leasing than just buying it. It looks good to be able to say he doesn't own one, but the fact is, he's probably spending more ministry money. Also, keep in mind that Joyce's money comes from her book royalties. She doesn't make a salary from the ministry. We live in a free country, so how she spends what she earns is her business. Also, the "5 houses" is old information. Those were houses she bought for her married children.

Christine W

I do feel like Joyce has much to offer Christians, and I have personally gained spiritually from her teaching. However, I think you are confusing some issues, Phil. In my view, it is irrelevant to this discussion that we live in a free country. Christians are instructed to be not of the world. Where we live has nothing to do with justifying our choices (including extravagance) in God's eyes. The Bible is the same for all Christians in any location. Is it legal in America for Joyce to make millions and spend it as she sees fit? Certainly. But is it ethical? Is it solid Christian stewardship? Personally, I am not so sure on those latter counts, although ultimately, it will be between Joyce and God.

Phil

So exactly what does Joyce do that's unethical? Can you be specific? I'd love to be making millions off the sales of my books. Sadly, that's not happening… :-)

Christine W

I didn't definitively say she is being unethical. I do think it is a reasonable question to be asked, though. My suspicions are certainly raised. Does she have things or do things have her? I don't know. That is between her and God.

http://www.mogs.com/eq2-plat eq2 gold

Nice site as well as great post. Thanks for the information. keep it coming. Looking forward to seeing more.

Ms. Critic

You sound and type like a person who hasn't read much of anything. In all your getting – get an understand!

Jeremy

In all you’re getting…get an understand????

why don’t you criticize your own spelling before you criticize how others spell or type?

http://www.philcooke.com/comment/reply/1378 constantineforyou

found out THROUGH IRS that, joyce meyers rakes in $100 million per year not including 5 houses, private jets, maids and servants. I still like her ministry though.

jim mcguinness

To me the value of Joyce Meyer’s books and teachings are that they help people to deal with the troubles that they face in life, much the same as any other book you would find on the ‘self help’ shelf in the bookstore and the only difference is that she makes constant reference to the Word of God to back it up. I don’t think she ever intended to be another Thomas a Kempis and try to imitate Christ because if she did she has failed. As far as I know Christ didn’t have a property portfolio. Joyce is an author and sells books and TV shows for whatever the going rate is. Where charitable donations for outreach work in poor countries actually goes isn’t something I can comment on as I simply don’t have any of the facts. For me, all of this media controversy does not diminish the Word of God. It has stood the test of time and doesn’t need any help from me.

Doc Scoggin

God has an all seeing eye. He know who is slick, sly, slimmy & righteous. You do reap what you sow.

Tina Hoffman

This rumor resulted in more attention to her ministry that ended up being proven ABOVE BOARD by the investigating officials.
“ALL things work for the good of those who Love The Lord and are called according to His Purpose” Romans 8:28 .http://www.joycemeyer.org/AboutUs/FinancialAccountability/

Carol

Where is the airplane of Kenneth Copeland Ministries?
Are they in Japan right now where they are so desperately needed? Where is the water and food for the people in horrific and desperate need that our tithe dollars are supposed to supply? Where are they and all the other televangelists in this massive humanitarian crisis?
Jesus told us “by their fruits (actions) you will know them”. How many more hours of suffering will tick by and how many more people will cry out before TRUE followers of Jesus will respond!!!
It’s never been about self-centered brat prosperity -i.e. the rich young man who just couldn’t bring himself to give up the junk possessions of life to follow the Truth and be set free.
It’s about Love, Truth and self-sacrifice. It’s about following Jesus and giving “until it hurts” like Mother Teresa showed us by her fruits (actions) following Jesus.

Interested

I was just wondering. I do oppose the giving of extravagant gifts from one ministry to another, but do we know church funds are actually used to buy the gift? I serve in a ministry that does not oppose prosperity as such, but we are encouraged to have our own streams of income to support the life style we wish to lead rather than burden the church.

There is a lot that is wrong with prosperity doctrine, but facts need to be investigated before accusations are made and the reason for a gift may also need to be taken into account.

For example, the gift or loan of a personal jet could save the person gifted or loaned a fortune in air fares so the fact they now own a jet is not in itself prosperity but common sense. (I am talking off the top of my head as I have no idea whether it is cheaper to own a jet or travel, but what I am getting at is the principle.)

If I HAVE a Rolls and own it (not brought from church resources) and give it to someone in need it actually would show a lack of materialism however I came by it.

I certainly did not refuse when someone gave me a car – they wanted to bless me and I needed a car and that was how God got me a car and the insurance to go with it for a year! I was happy with a second hand, but the principle is the same. That said, then the question is if TD Jakes had the Rolls and did not need it, then did he look for the person who did and pass it on because that is in the spirit of the way the early Christians worked – each gave everything but had according to their need.

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Merietta Smith

I know for a fact that one of the reasons that my friends have recieved so much blessing is because of heartfelt prayer said in love for that person by those who love them. God responds to love, with yet more love, and mercy with more mercy and Grace. We who know Christ are EXITED that there is someone to tell the masses about the the most important part of God; relationship. Unbelievers have a concept of God that cannot fathom the relationship between God and his children. And Joyce, in describing her relationship with God, is, in effect, describing the beauty and wonder of OUR relationship with God and how that relationship impacts our everyday lives as Christians. Her words lift us up and encourage us in a world that is often engaged in opposition to God and his word making it a challenge to remain in faith. So what reward do you believe the creator would withhold from someone who encourages people in their walk with God? An infinite God with infinite love and infinite power? A pat on the head and a big “THANKS”? I’m sure that Gods rewards go far beyond what we measure here on earth. What value do these critics put on salvation itself? That being a priceless gift, which is free, but many cast off as foolishness. Gods economy is vastly different from ours, isn’t it?

Irving485

For some ungodly reason (like GreeD$) this woman has accumulated a lot money, how? The toilet is not the issue!!

http://www.gapmin.org Nanette Stevenson

Upfront I ask anyone that may be offended by my laughter to forgive me. This is a serious issue and every now and then some things are so ridiculous they become comical… and here it is! I agree the line has been crossed. How far will Grassley go? There is a lot of finger pointing and rock throwing taking place and it will be interesting to see if Grassley's house is made of glass or stone.

I am an advocate for accountability, open accounting and financial records, transparent lives and all of the checks and balance systems that are available to aide ministries in doing the right thing but I am reminded that empty wagons have a tendency to make a lot of noise and that the person pulling the empty wagon usually has a beam in his eye and amkes it a point to point out the speck in someone else's eye…..Okay, so it's written in Christianese but I think every reader understands the glass house. Right?

glass or stone house

I am also reminded that Barking dogs don´t bite.

Larry Walker

LOL, that is really funny….

island girl

I am not at all surprised…Joyce is an upfront person.

Now, can anyone explain why Paula gave T D Jakes a Bentley? Did she take donor gifts to purchse that gift?

Phil

Now THATS a good question.

Mrs Sanders

A woman should not be giving another woman husband a gift like that so you see she is out of order

Randy

Maybe Paula (I have a word for you) might just like the old boy for reasons not known to us. I think it's long over due for these name it claim it crooks to be investigated. Although nothing will ever be done about it in this life, there is a day of judgment coming, and they all will answer for their sins. On resurrection morning we will all get up, no one will sleep late. The Bible that I read never speaks of this world we live in as a paradise, if this is their idea of heaven, then they can have it. There is no flash and blood human being in this day that can touch someone and heal them of a sickness, it's simply not the truth. The scriptures say, God is no respecter of persons, he would never give one individual something that he wouldn't give to everyone else. The bottom line for these greedy dogs is money so they can live well, they don't care about people, or the salvation of their souls. They catch people at their lowest moments in life and steal from them, their con artist nothing more. Wise up people, if you want a good relationship with the Lord, pick up your Bible and study.

Tricia

For years I went to a large church, once the in America, and I was the "hostess" to all the stars who came to visit. We had them all, name one they came. I remember when Joyce Meyer first came. I was in the middle of a battle for my own healing having just admitted for the first time that my father had been sexually abusive. I remember thinking how different she and Dave were to all the others who came through and demanded celebrity status. They spent some time with me, praying with me about some of the things I was dealing with or at that time did not know how to deal with really. At that time Joyce was just starting on radio. For several years I went to her conferences and hosted them about 3 times a year at our church. I bouth all the tapes, there were no book then.

Then Rodney Howard Browne came to town. What a whirlwind. Many came from the church in St. Lous to see him. Joyce and Dave were part of that. After that she changed. She decided she had to be BIG. She demanded all sorts of things, like special water etc. There was no more time for the "little people". Her teaching was still good, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

About that same time a good friend of mine decided to move to St. Louis to work for Joyce. She last 3 years and came back to our church broken and suffering extreme depression. She had suffered so much spiritual abuse she was not sure she wanted to be a Christian anymore. It took us 2 years of praying and helping my friend before she started to recover a little. In the end, she decided to try Buddha because God was to hard of a task master.

It is very sad for me to see something that started out so good go so bad. My friend has seen and documented the excess and just because one American does not knw what a commode really is does not excuse Joyce. Oh and why isn't in her office? Why is it inher house. In my 501c3 book it says designated items must be used as designated!! You forgot that part, so while your laughing it up at Ole Anthony just remember it's some little grandmothers 5.00 a week that is making Joyce 95 million a year. God has to something soon and I believe he will use the world to do it if we will not judge ourselves!!

TL

(on the mission field with 6,000 a year)

Phil

It IS in her office…

island girl

Does the church have to act so stupid? I mean, really!

I don't want my money that I gave to a ministry being used to gift another ministry!

If I had wanted to give to that other ministry–I would have done so.

What is with these other ministries (not ministers) giving Copeland $2MM? If the Senator's letter is correct, these, like the Bentley, came from ministry money.

How come the church acts so STUPID?

What is with Eddie Long having his board vote to give hime 100% control? As the Senator asks, does that mean he sets his own salary, benefits? Gosh, that is even better than the board being populated by your kids and best friends!

We have stuck our chin out to the government and said "hit here."

Jen

Even if it is an antique piece of furniture, what is a piece of furniture that expensive doing in her office?

Normal toilet = $150-500

Normal sofa table (aka commode; the "antique" part is certainly a luxury item) = $150-500

Extravagance is extravagance. Better to be extravagant in spiritual things than material ones.

elinor martinez

FOR EVEN MORE FUN FOR THE FEEDING FRENZY , CHECK OUT THE WEB SITE

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Dallas-News-The Cult of Ole

OLE ANTHONY IS THE MAN WHOSE LIFE IS SO CLEAN AND HE IS SO PROSPEROUS HIMSELF , HE CAN POINT THE FINGER AT ANY MAN ON THE EARTH.. AND HE IS THE ONE WHO IS PUSHING SENATER GRASSLY TO DO THE INVESTIGATIONS ON THE TLELVANGELISTS….BRAGS ABOUT HAVING SLEPT WITH THOUSANDS OF WOMEN ! WON'T LET THE PEOPLE IN HIS CHURCH GET MARRIED WHEN THEY WANT TO…HAS ABSOLUTE AND TOTAL CONTROL OVER THEM ALL.. A NEW BOOK IS COMING OUT BY ONE OF THE PEOPLE HE CONTROLLED FOR YEARS AND YEARS… THE NAME OF IT IS " I CAN'T HEAR GOD ANYMORE ".. ONCE MADE THIS STATEMENT FROM THE PULPIT, " LOOK AT ALL OF YOU.. YOU LOOK LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN SUCKING ON SOMEONE'S MENSTRUAL RAG " IS THAT CLASS OR WHAT ?? HAS YOUR OWN PREACHER EVER TALKED TO YOU LIKE THAT ??? HAS ANYONE IN YOUR WHOLE LIFE EVER TALKED TO YOU LIKE THAT ? I REALLY WONDER ABOUT SENATOR GRASSLY WHEN HE NEEDS ASSISTANCE FROM THIS MAN TO DO ANYTHING AT ALL….. READ THE BOOK AND THEN SEE IF YOU THINK HE HAS A RIGHT TO POINT HIS FINGER AT ANYONE ! CHRISTIAN OR ATHEIST !!!

maria

This is a very strong accusation. We never wish wrong on another, if you are right God will bring it to light and deal with it. Pray about it but don't judge without facts.

Emilia

The Word of God that all these ministries are preaching are the facts. Sometimes we don't all practice what we preach (that goes for everyone!!!) but that doesn't change what the facts are. The words that these ministries preach every single day are the facts. What these people do behind closed doors will have to be between God and them. That is why Jesus said not to put your faith in man but in him alone. People may let you down but Jesus never will. You see God can use a jack ass to spread the word of God and we all have been one, one time or the other. You see I put my faith in Jesus and not in all these people who preach the word of God. So if something does arise I am not let down and it feels so good to know that Jesus will never let me down. I love hearing the word of God from all these ministries because what they are preaching are the FACTS what they do behind closed doors they will have to deal with at least it isn't me. God Bless!!! :)

Mark Broccardo

Your religion is not "fact". It is no different than any other religion. None of them are based on facts. They all use myths and fables to place guilt, fear, and shame on people to try to get them to follow their doctrines.

Becky

You do not know much about the Christian faith because it is not based on fear or guilt much less shame. It is based upon Christ's unconditional love for us. His unconditional grace and mercy. I will pray for you.

http://www.SafeGuardYourSoul.com todd tomasella

These people are not preaching the full-counsel of God whatsoever but rather a carefully extracted few scriptures to the exclusion of the whole and complete Word of God. By doing so they have and are creating unbiblical doctrines that are misleading millions. I KNOW BECAUSE I USED TO BE ONE OF THEM. http://www.SafeGuardYourSoul.com

barbara

I couldn't agree more with what you have wrote.We are not to judge anyone that is left up to God.I also love to here some of the preachers preach the word of God.I don't care what they have or don't have.God will deal with them!! God Bless!!

Kevin Neslund

Mr. Tomasella:

Please. As of 4-17-09 your website is still up. “extracting a piece of scripture and not it’s entirety”? You can’t be serious. Your whole gig is built on this formula. You treat Scripture like a buffet. Reality check! I’ll hang in there and walk with you and love you with Christian brotherly love. However, there are truckloads of Scripture that I know you would run away from because they do not align with your mainline/traditional/philosophical interpretation of the god you think is out there.

God bless you,

Kevin Neslund

http://www.SafeGuardYourSoul.com Todd

Give me a verse I would run from Kevin. If it’s in the Bible, I certainly would not. Your accusations are groundless. You may wish to do your homework before making statements like that …. if you truly wish to walk in love as you say. Fee free to obey God’s Word – the instruction of the Messiah – found in Matt. 18:15; Prov. 25:9. You can begin here todd_tomasella@yahoo.com

http://www.SafeGuardYourSoul.com Todd

According to God’s Word, gillibility is a curse, not a Christian virtue and He told us His own people were and are going to be destroyed for “lack of knowledge” and ”err” (go into error) because they do not personally know the Holy Scriptures or the power of God (Hos. 4:6; Matt. 22:29). The LORD Jesus commanded us to “judge righteous judgment” and “know” (discern) people/leaders - “by their fruits” which includes their doctrines ( Matt. 7:15-20). The LORD said the Berean believers were “more NOBLE” due to their putting the apostle Paul’s person, reputation, and teaching to the test of Holy Scripture (Acts 17:11). To test all spirits is a divine mandate – “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (1 John 4:1) According to this instruction, any person who naively believes and doesn’t put to the test EVERY spirit (including mine), is in direct disobedience to the LORD. “The simple (undiscerning; gilllible) believeth every word: but the prudent (wise; discerning) man looketh well to his going.” (Prov. 14:15) All undershepherds who are true to the LORD teach others God’s truth concerning discernment (Ezek. 44:23). Paul did 3 things to insure the Bride of Jesus was prepared to meet Him – preach, WARN, and teach (Col. 1:28). God is love. NAMING NAMES: Is it Biblical? http://www.safeguardyoursoul.com/html/naming_names__is_it_biblical_.html

http://www.SafeGuardYourSoul.com Todd

AMEN brother Mark! You are obeying God by judging righteous judgment which is the command of Jesus (Jn. 7:24). You are exposing darkness so that those who truly desire the light of divine truth will see it and come out, while those who do not want to truly get real with God will cover for, protect, and perpetuate the ministry of the many antichrist’s who now operate in the midst of the church world as was foretold concerning these last days (Jn. 3:19-21; 2 Tim. 3:13; 4:2-5, etc.). Those who do such will receive the same eternal judgment as the false prophets they promote in the name of a perverted “love” they claim to be walking in. These people do love the truth which is a clear manifestation that they do not love the One who “is love.” (2 Thess. 2:9-12; 2 John 7-11). We are commanded to “mark” – scope and label all those who do not reconcile with Holy Scripture (Rom. 16:17-18). Those who don’t study to show their own selves approved unto God will not be able to rightly divide the Word of truth and will not make it (2 Tim. 2:15; 3:16-17). This is the difference between the wise and foolish virgins our LORD spoke of to lovingly warn us to be filled and ready (Matt. 25:1-13). For more, see WOLF EXPOSE’ on ARTICLES page at SafeGuardYourSoul.com

Jeremy Chambers

Your religion is not “fact”. It is no different than any other religion. None of them are based on facts. They all use myths and fables to place guilt, fear, and shame on people to try to get them to follow their doctrines.

How do you know this for sure? You claim that what was stated before you wasn’t fact, but you yourself state that none of them are based on facts, you refute an opinion with your own? doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. I could sit here and try to prove to you what Joyce’s teachings have done for my personal life. no it has nothing to do with money…it’s all about knowing the bible (God’s word). here’s a challenge to you…why don’t you read the bible and then listen to Joyce Meyer to see if her teachings line up with the bible. then you’ll know what is fact and what is not.

Tracy

Right on sister!! You spoke that very well!! We should each pray for discernment and let God deal with the hearts of others.

Phil Cooke

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